Columbia Lions (3-1) at Pennsylvania Quakers (4-0)
October 15, 2022
Kickoff Time: 1:00pm
Game Time Weather Forecast: 69 degrees and sunny
The Line: Penn is favored by 3 points
TV/Radio: The game is available on ESPrN+
Leading Story Lines
1) Penn is trying to prove its 4-0 start is for real, after seeing its program fall out of contention since it last won a share of the Ivy title in 2016. Columbia is trying to prove its sluggish overall offensive performance for much of the last two weeks is the fluke.
2) In a series that's long been dominated by the Quakers, the Lions have won the last two meetings. But CU still hasn't won at Franklin Field since 1996.
3) Columbia Head Coach Al Bagnoli returns to Franklin Field perhaps for the last time as a coach.
3 Columbia Players to Watch
1) QB Joe Green needs to start sharp to avoid another slow start for the Lions offense. Penn's defense has been stout this season, so that won't be easy.
2) S Fara'ad McCombs has become the target of opposing QB's a little more often than one might have expected coming into this season. McCombs needs to make Penn pay if they try the same.
3) WR Bryson Canty is someone to keep your eye on week after week.
3 Penn Players to Watch
1) DE Jake Heimlicher is the best player on a good Penn defense.
2) WR Rory Starkey isn't getting targeted as much this season, but that could change Saturday.
3) CB Logan Nash will likely draw the unhappy duty of having to cover Canty most of the day.
53 comments:
Line moves from 3 to 6.5/7 Saturday morning. Player news, or action on Penn? Figures to be a tight game, unless player news, not sure why line would move like that. Penn O vs Georgetown likely an anomaly. Thoughts?
Fumbles, interception, turnover on downs. It's an epic meltdown.
Finally!!! Time to mix up that offense!!!
Clean Joe Green was a thing in the past. Probably leading the Ivy in picks thrown.
Lets be honest. At this level of play one qb is not that much better than the other…the big game changer is a qb that can really move his legs. We don’t have that in QB1.
Gotta have the conversation 10 vs 11 the rest of the way.
Yes sir! What could have been had this conversation started sooner…
My respectful comment is a question. Is this the end of the Bagnoli era? Doesn’t seem
to be in an upward arc.
No. It is the end of Green as starting QB. Green had the worst game I have seen any QB play. Caden should start. And the OC should teach our WRs ball security.
Not completely about coaching, even though questions are legit. This is about execution and putting the ball on the ground. The ‘27 Yankees couldn’t beat Penn with 4 turn overs.
It’s all on Al and Fabish. The Lions have the players like Painton ( baby Gronk), Young, Canty etc…. All the best in the league at their positions
To quote the Chambers Brothers, “The time has come today”. It is time to ask the difficult but important questions.
Why are we not making strides? Why can we not stay competitive with a Princeton, at home? Or, a Penn on the road?
I am not saying, “win” every game, but how about just making it competitive?
There can only be two reasons for a result like today.
Either we do not have the talent the other schools have, in which case we have to ask, “Why can we not attract better talent?”
Or, “Why is the talent we have, not performing?”
Someone will be quick to say, “It is markedly better now than it was pre-Coach Bagnoli!”
But is that the answer? Every year three wins against cupcakes, and maybe two to four wins against the Ancient Eight.
Is that what we need to accept, year in, and year out, going forward?
Yes, it is better than 1-9, but are we to be satisfied, knowing “death by hanging is better than death by stoning?”
The players make a huge commitment in order to play, emotionally and physically. They are owed the chance to win the games they are supposed to win, and be competitive in all the other games.
Is anyone asking the tough questions?
Idk where you’re getting this baby gronk nickname from. Painton is a great player but has definitely had his woes with catching the ball. Not sure if you watched last year or not.
Apparently after Princeton I needed my head examined, mentioning playing the qb back up was a “poor comment”, and the staff would never put the back up qb in. Looks like my head examination went well and questioning the qb play is not personal. If we are going to win the staff has to be willing to change out personell that are not performing.
It’s the talent. Fans don’t want to hear that but it is true
We just took two big steps backwards today. If you watched the game closely, the defense looked utterly lost. The DBs and LBs kept looking at each other dazed and confused because they were constantly out of position. How does that happen? We had Penn 3rd and long (three times over 15 yards) and we still let them get first downs. I thought that the D-Line played very well. Thanks for a great effort!
Penn had two DBs that were 5'8" tall at best (regardless of what they were listed at). They must have come over from Penn's Sprint Football team. All we had to do was call an audible to go up against them. We have no offensive scheme! I'm not sure it's Green's fault if you have a game plan that is that incoherent. I agree, we should have played Caden in the start of the second half.
Extremely poor execution just means that the team was simply not prepared. No, the coaches didn't fumble. They didn't kick poorly (after several sub-30 yard punts, you may want to switch things up). Nor did they throw interceptions, but they had no "Plan B" after they saw how things were going in the first quarter. The coaches need to look themselves in the mirror.
Hey, did any of you notice that Penn used this these things called "tight ends". They're were the ones that scored two TDs against us. They sat 8-10 yards off the ball when the QB read his natural progression checking his receivers. Hmmm, just a thought...
Just disappointing on so many levels...
I don't see Al's replacement on this staff.
Ah, it’s the coaching you say?
It’s a combination of everything. Simply put it, this team can’t put together a complete game. Have a roster that is talented enough to compete for a championship. However this team does not take care of the little things. Sloppy play for the players, sloppy preparation/adjustments from coaching staff. Offense hadn’t clicked all season and defense has its first bad game. Record looking like a repeat from 2018 season: 6-4.
What a terrible performance.. What can I say? Spend less time working the refs,more time prepping the offense... Play calling remains an Achilles heel..Week after week we keep demanding abandonment of a conservative, clock killing offense..Any suggestions that are grounded in fact are ignored..WHY? 2 back sets should be part of the offense.. They once were...NOT ALL THE TIME but change the look, use a back to help relieve pressure etc..This is the third week in a row that McFadden looks lost returning punts...Soooooo many mental errors...See Anonymous comment above
The defense can only be on the field so long... Scouting this
Would you rather have Ray Priore coaching the Lions?
We have an amazing group of talented young men...Bagnoli regularly calls them "kids" .Bagnoli needs to deal with the offensive play calling - it has not been good for many many games..
The players are constantly looking at the sidelines for each play ..and it burns up so much time ..and it looks like we can't call a play or two for the QB in advance...and let the QB make his own decisions too ..It is as if the OC wants to be the QB. What a disaster ..we have two great tight ends...Luke is massive and surely can catch the ball ..6"6" 265 lbs...and we have four or five fine RBs..Ryan Young has incredible talent ..and our receiving corps is great.
How can any QB deal with constant changing of plays from the sidelines...Green must be utterly frustrated....I expect we will beat Dartmouth ..Penn beat them I saw the game....But we win only if the OC comes up with some good plays and lets the "kids" play .
What a great offensive line we have too ...and our players can handle creative plays too..
How about some surprises ..
As to whom I would want coaching the Lions, Mr.Priore, or Mr.Bagnoli?
Just for the record, since the start of the 2017 season, Mr. Bagnoli has one more victory in Ivy League play than Mr. Priore can claim.
To go back before 2017, would not be fair, since one could argue Mr. Priore “inherited” significant talent that helped him win his titles, which would greatly skew the numbers to favor Mr. Priore.
Candidly, if choosing Mr. Bagnoli is a package deal with Mr. Fabish, I would prefer anybody else.
But the truth is, why ask us?
Someone should ask the players their opinion of the Fabish/Bagnoli twins.
Somehow, I do not think we would be shocked with their responses.
Can anyone say in all honesty, that this year’s team, particularly the offense, has lived up to their potential?
They absolutely haven’t. Just like everyone else & how Jake stated in preseason, it looked like we were going to have to rely on our offense given the amount of returning talent on that side of the ball and them being used to the system. There was many questions going into the season about our defense, especially our defense line play which have probably been the most consistent group in league play so far. It appears that this team is a defensively team given our offensive woes. If defense doesn’t play lights out, hard seeing us compete with the top guns in the league this year (I.E Harvard, Princeton, Yale)
I would expect to see Caden Bell start at this point. Joe Green has not gotten it done against the two quality opponents we have played. 0 points in two games. Plus some terrible decisions. With our talent we should be better than that.
throttled and rattled in two league games, with players looking completey lost. at franklin field yeaterday i felt like i was re-living the first hlalf nightmare that was last year's harvard game, but we weren't plying harvard but a team we beat last year fairy handily. play calling was atrocious. defensive schemes not even close. penn's tailback running over us at will. special teams a disaster. three terrible punts in a row to start the game while it was still close. turnovers of every variety. there was a time when games like this for columbia were commonplace, but then there was the excuae of blatant talent disparities. not so now. everything points to the coaches--all of them, from the HC on down. if this were big time football,...
For those of you who previously posed the question, Ray Priore or Al (and staff), I would take Al and staff 100% of the time! You alums soon forget the Garrett, McElreavy, Tellier, Shoop, Wilson and Mangurrinan administrations (pause and think about that for a minute...). We have far superior talent than Penn. Our recruiting is much better and we are simply at a different level than Penn; it just didn't show yesterday. Also, Princeton had a handful of pro prospecs, but we could have beaten them with the talent that we have. Al (and staff) have clearly elevated the program, NO QUESTION. What we need to ask ourselves is if we have plateaued, and is it time for a change? There are no excuses! We have updated the facilities, the coaches have better salaries (and housing), the players have excellent food services and SWAG, the recruiting budget has increased, and the administration (and admissions) are behind them. I'm not sure what else you need?
I do believe Fabish and the staff work very hard, they just need to work smarter. Yes, I know that's a cliche', however, if you recall a few years ago when Brian Kelly gave up the play calling at ND, they were more successful. It wasn't easy for Kelly to give up that responsibility (pride), however, he understood that it was better for the program if they brought in new blood. You cannot take the play calling responsibility away from Fabish this year, that would be unprofessional. Any changes or modifications should be made in the Spring. We can have an OC (Fabish) and have someone else call the plays. Fabish can just manage the offense and special teams (which need a great deal oversight these past two years). Plan "B" would be to have Co-Offensive Coordinators, like several programs have. Just a thought... Also, let's not forget that we have a new QB coach and several young NEW coaches that are just learning the ropes. Based on their CVs, it appears that they are learning how to coach at the expense of our season.
To quote Frank Layden, “you cannot teach height”. Does Fabish deserve a pass because, “he works hard”?
This should be about the players who spend 30 hours (or more) a week committed to Columbia Football. It is “unprofessional” to them to not afford them a chance to be competitive EVERY week. Think of a Ryan Young, for whom next Spring will not be soon enough.
Every time we say, “but look at how much better it is now than it was”, we are accepting mediocrity.
So you want to compare Bagnoli to Schiano (a disastrous program on the Raritan) and fire his OC after two losses? I'm not defending Fabish, I just think that he has earned the right to evaluate his current play calling and make changes himself. Hopefully, we'll see those changes in the next game plan. If you read my previous posts, I also see the need for changes (throw to the TEs, blow up the Wildcat formation and utilize more RPO options in the play calling). No offense, but the last time I checked, Fabish didn't fumble the ball, drop open passes, mishandle punts, short-arm receivers or allowed opposing WRs and RB top run over our DBs. Let's be fair...
Mediocrity is being at the bottom of the league for over forty years. We are clearly in the upper echelon of the league and are a handful of good players away from contention (based on the recruiting classes that we are bringing in). No, everything is not perfect, but yes, it is much better than where we've been.
If Green continues to falter, agreed, bring in Caden Bell. In fact, he should have gotten snaps earlier this year, but we don't see how the QBs play daily in practice, Al does. Al's also not blind, so if a change is merited (as in earned in practice, not a subjective opinion based on two bad games), then make the change. Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell and Yale are all beatable. Let's regroup and go from there...
Food for thought... bring back Jon Poppe next year. He did a GREAT job with us when he was here. I've watched several Harvard games this year and he is an impressive young coach.
https://gocrimson.com/sports/football/roster/coaches/jon-poppe/1773
So I think we're seeing a few things here. First and foremost, the I think the number of coaching changes this past season are catching up a bit. Example #1, Greene is on his third QB coach in as many years. At this level, coaching consistency is huge when developing players. New D-line coach, new DB coach, new LB coach, new player personnel coach, new D-coord. That's a lot of potential inconsistency to overcome ... especially at the FCS level where the talent isn't a bunch of 4 and 5-star players. Sure, some of the new coaching is promotion from within, but that doesn't always mean a fluid transition.
The effort is there. The talent is there. The consistency isn't and that screams (to me at least) that it will take more time to develop that. These kids have had less than 2 months to acclimate to the changes. It just hasn't fully happened yet. We've seen a lot of good things happen on the field, we just haven't seen them consistently.
Barring something crazy, the Ivy title isn't happening. But Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, are very winnable and I don't think Yale is out of the question either as they haven't been dominating anyone to date.
Certainly there are some things that can be improved. There have been some questionable in-game decisions and the quest to chase points early rather than taking what is given to you is not helping things. Some of that comes from that staff believing too much in what the team is currently capable of. That isn't a horrible thing, but at this point, some adjustments in that regard need to be made (in my opinion)
Go Lions!! #CM #EAT
Yes. There are a lot of disgruntled players and parents of offensive players
MOBILITY is big in the Ivy QB department, no? Al used to use two QBs in a game.. See which one is hot... etc....How about Grier gettng a chance at QB? Since I suggested it, it will never happen! Who am I to shake up the offense! Utilize the Two Yard Terror and have Fabish plow on!
Victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan; here is my take for what has happened in the Princeton and Penn games: our starting QB has generated 0 points and has missed open receivers and thrown horrendous interceptions; our punter was awful yesterday; our excellent star WR had the ball inexplicably stripped after a 50 yard catch and run; we continued to be unable to get off the field on defense on 3rd and long;we missed tackles; and our OL played poorly in the run game and on pass pro.
Plus the Penn LT dominated our pass rushers and protected the blind side of the Penn QB, who had 4 to 5 seconds on average and was never under pressure.
And Green threw the worse pick 6 I think I hav ever seen by not throwing the ball over the head of the Penn DT and allowing him to snatch it.
Well said - it’s all due to coaching!
And execution…
The NC qbs are not there anymore
This has
Well, I thought the natives (including me) were restless after the Princeton debacle. However, now a major uprising amongst the faithful given these 35+ comments. I don’t “enjoy” especially under these circumstances, but I value this forum and the range of opinions and post-game assessments, even from those who elect to post as “anonymous”.
Couple comments:
1) We knew before the season began about the multiple changes in the coaching staff. Did we overlook or simply fail to recognize the impact?
2) The question and related exchange re: Bagnoli and Priore distract from the issues at hand and offer little value.
3) We were all (most of us, I believe) highly optimistic at the beginning of the season. Perhaps rightfully so, and anointed QB Green as savior. Again, very reasonable given his accomplishments under challenging circumstances last year. Last year with Green/Hollingsworth and at the beginning of this season, Caden Bell wasn’t on anyone’s radar. Now he could be thrust into the starting role.
4) Call me a fan and eternally optimistic – but I do believe we have largely comparable talent with most of the other Ivy competition. Yes, I rely on Jake’s assessment of our talent compared with previous squads and with other Ivy teams. And I applaud these guys for all their hard work. The effort to play at the varsity level in the Ivy League, especially football, is massive.
5) And yes, I’d prefer to see Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell, and Colgate return to our schedule.
6) “7-3, 6-4” – Why not suggest “5-5” for the season? I hate to offer this sour note, but if we don’t perform/execute better in the second half of the season, we’ll be hard-pressed to win another. Any of the remaining competition would similarly pounce on our miscues.
7) That said, I’m confident we’ll come out angry on Homecoming and win. Don’t pretend to know who the QB will be or about the play calling. Even though parking does suck and ESPN+ clearly makes it easier to watch at one’s own private tailgate party, we’ll likely see 10,000. Usually do, even in the most difficult years. Yes, Baker Field remains a gorgeous venue when you manage to get across Broadway and enter through the gates.
Thanks to all who weigh in here, advancing a conversation that’s meaningful to all of us.
Next week will be a grudge match for Dartmouth. They will also be angry after last year’s game.
Dartmouth has been ravaged by injuries and not the same type of team we have played against in the past decade. And we spanked them last year. I predict a big homecoming victory
whomever predicted a big victory at h-coming next sat--against dartmouth no less,who will be loaded for bear after the facial we gave them in hanover last year--wasn't in philly for the debacle i watched versus penn, where we hd absolutely nothing for well more than a half until the game was way out of hand. i'm not advocating canning our coaches, but i work in a very high pressue professional environment, and when the reuslts you achieve with the hand you've been dealt are terrible, there's a priceto pay. some bitching by the tiny number of real fans the lions have on this blog hardly strikes me as out of bounds.
I have seen a couple games on TV. I like Toph's comments above.
My brother likes to say good players make good coaches and great players make great coaches. Before Coach B's arrival CU had many fewer players in both categories than the other Ivy teams, hence its poor record to that point. Coach B's (and AD Piling's and the admission office's) great breakthrough was creation of the recruiting and support infrastructure currently in place that brought us comparable players. It has allowed us to level the playing field, literally.
Every season is different primarily because the players are different. All the coaches in the Ivies know each other and each other's tendencies. They know how Coach B and his coordinators are going to attack them as Coach B knows how they are going to attack him. There aren't any real secrets. They all revert to who they are at game time. That is why there are invisible TE's in our offense, as one example. It is not in Coach B's modus operandi. It comes down to the players one has versus the players they have and how well each executes the game plan. Coach B looks for a certain type of player to fill his tendencies and game plan. This year against more equal competition CU has not executed as well as they have and, it would seem, the game plans against Princeton and Penn have not been as sharply focused as their game plans against us. In many ways it is like watching the NE Patriots/Tampa Bay Bucs try to figure out how to evolve their offenses with new coaches and new players.
Coaches don't try to lose games and players don't try to make mistakes. But they do. It's life. We have a 50/50 chance of winning every game we play. I couldn't have said that a few years ago. So I am happy. I would prefer we approach the games with more thought as to how we can use players more resourcefully and display their considerable talents/reward their hard work. I hope the coaches are self-scouting themselves and asking questions of themselves.
“I work in a very high pressure professional environment “😂😂😂😂😂😂
Talk about insight! Thanks NJ Lion..
I hate calling players out, but the biggest disappointment this season has been the play of the O line. I seem to remember in preseason that Jake thought that unit would be one of the best in the league
We are down one starter on the OL. But the point is well taken that the pass pro has been inadequate against the two Ivy opponents. Green is primarily a pocket passer who doesn’t extend plays with his legs. But I also think we can go to two back sets, use an H back, develop some slants to the TE and take some more deep shots on first down.
Why isn’t Painton used more in the passing game?
There are losses and there are embarrassing losses. The Princeton game falls into the first category. It was a tough loss but a competitive game which could have turned out as a win if we hadn’t made half a dozen avoidable mistakes. The Penn game was an embarrassing loss. Penn was no better than Princeton to be sure. A good team, but hardly invincible. Test for the first time in the Bagnoli era we didn’t seem ready to play. I didn’t see crisp execution. I didn’t see situational awareness. I saw no creativity or imagination. No use of TEs. No two back sets. A hopeless punting performance-3 shanks no less. I saw missed tackles. I saw the Penn QB with all day to find receivers. I saw turnovers. I saw a ball ripped out of our best player’s hands. We are at an inflection point. Make no mistake about it. .
Very well-stated recap.
Has everyone noticed how poor the overall punting and kicking is in the Ivy League, year in and year out? Watching IL games is embarrassing at times when the kickers come out.
Can’t remember Caden Bell taking a snap
before this season but if a change is needed he deserves a shot. Started throughout HS
In the elite “Trinity” conference of Catholic schools in Southern California, rated at the top level .in CA and nationally.
And he used his legs a lot, not only to avoid sacks but to gain yardage.
Why the coaching staff thought a majority passing offense was going to be successful in the IL is beyond me. That would be coaching error #1. It is not a league that can recruit an OL that can give a pocket passer enough time and protection. They should have stuck with the duel threat qbs that consistently perform well in the IL.
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